As if Pathfinder didn't hate monks enough.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:14 pm

MfA wrote:With corresponding cheap metamagic rods.

Koumei wrote:Pathfinder-Core Only, is there anything a person can do that isn't super lame and boring? Even some kind of impressive charge build?

Yes. You will need the following magic items.

You know what to do.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:29 pm

hogarth wrote:Persistent Spell (+2 levels, your target has to make two saves instead of one).

Oh, wow.

Either Pathfinder has the biggest hard-on for spellcasters ever or they're so fucking stuck-up that they can't imagine anyone trying to use material from other sourcebooks except theirs.

Or maybe they just really suck at math.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:39 pm

The answer is yes.

This is why none of their caster nerfs stick, having a net effect of casters getting buffed in PF.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:32 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
hogarth wrote:Persistent Spell (+2 levels, your target has to make two saves instead of one).
Oh, wow.

Either Pathfinder has the biggest hard-on for spellcasters ever or they're so fucking stuck-up that they can't imagine anyone trying to use material from other sourcebooks except theirs.

Or maybe they just really suck at math.

I don't know why you' say that. Forcing your targets to reroll passed saves is basically just like getting a DC bonus. No one ever casts Heightened Spells unless they are cheesing out an Illusionist, so we all acknowledge that +2 levels for +2 to saves is bullshit. A reroll is of maximum benefit if the target saves on an 11+, where it is equivalent to adding +5 to the DC. It is at its least effect when the target saves on a 2+, when it is equivalent to adding +0.95 to the save DC. The table looks like this:


Target saves on...	Equivalent DC bonus
2+	+0.95
3+	+1.8
4+	+2.55
5+	+3.2
6+	+3.75
7+	+4.2
8+	+4.55
9+	+4.8
10+	+4.95
11+	+5.0
12+	+4.95
13+	+4.8
14+	+4.55
15+	+4.2
16+	+3.75
17+	+3.2
18+	+2.55
19+	+1.8

So on the 18 different save bonus numbers that a bonus to DC could possibly make any difference, a reroll is only outperforming Heighten Spell on the fifteen most common of them. And it's only better than twice that good on the nine most common numbers. So it's only ridiculously awesome.

The one that makes my jaw drop is the Bouncing Spell one. In any circumstance where you have more than one enemy, it's basically the same thing, except it only costs one level. Meaning that it is doubly (or quintuply) outperforming Heighten Spell against the fifteen most common save bonuses. That one is fucking ridiculous.

-Username17

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:54 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
The one that makes my jaw drop is the Bouncing Spell one. In any circumstance where you have more than one enemy, it's basically the same thing, except it only costs one level. Meaning that it is doubly (or quintuply) outperforming Heighten Spell against the fifteen most common save bonuses. That one is fucking ridiculous.

-Username17

Yup. Although for what it's worth, Bouncing Spell only works on single target spells with "Save: negates", whereas Persistent Spell works on a much broader assortment (multiple target spells and area effect spells).

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:10 pm

There's a slight difference. Bouncing Spell can only be used on single target spells where a successful save has no effect (so no disintegrate or phantasmal killer), while Persistent Spell isn't limited by number of targets or whether it's a partial effect on a successful save.

And yes, Heighten is crap and never used, so I consider Persistent Spell to 'merely' be a good option to consider. Bouncing Spell is a certainty. Heck, I might even forgo both and instead take Craft Rod to make Metamagic Rods for them; only 3k for a Lesser Rod of Persistent Spell (and 9k for Bouncing, oddly enough)? Yes please.

EDIT: And because they think damage is where it's at, they made the metamagic feat Elemental Substitution increase the spell level by +1 for the 'honor' of having a coldball.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:26 pm

virgil wrote: only 3k for a Lesser Rod of Persistent Spell (and 9k for Bouncing, oddly enough)?

Yeah, they clearly switched the prices for the two rods. Oops.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:48 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: I don't know why you' say that. Forcing your targets to reroll passed saves is basically just like getting a DC bonus. No one ever casts Heightened Spells unless they are cheesing out an Illusionist, so we all acknowledge that +2 levels for +2 to saves is bullshit.

I know, Frank, but keep in mind we're talking about Pathfinder. I really don't think it entered into anyone's head that Heighten Spell is a worthless metamagic feat and the bonus should be higher than it is. I'm almost positive that the people who wrote Persistent Spell think that it's about on the level of Heighten Spell.

It's funny because it's just like people who go 'monks are overpowered. Pick something else, Bob, I don't allow that powergaming crap at my table. Oh, you want your cleric to be an archer, Jamie? See, guys, why can't you guys stop being a fucking munchkin and be more like Jamie? It's like only Jamie knows how to ROLEplay not ROLLplay'.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:33 am

Roy: was that last picture a hammer or a penis? Once that's confirmed, I'll know what to do.

Lago PARANOIA wrote: It's funny because it's just like people who go 'monks are overpowered. Pick something else, Bob, I don't allow that powergaming crap at my table. Oh, you want your cleric to be an archer, Jamie? See, guys, why can't you guys stop being a fucking munchkin and be more like Jamie? It's like only Jamie knows how to ROLEplay not ROLLplay'.

True story: I was once in a game where someone was told "No, you can't go Warlock/Hellfire Warlock, especially with those Con-restoring tricks." and my Natural Spell Druid was accepted off the bat.

Though that might not be the same level of insanity, and could just be the whole "The less books your character needs, the more likely to be accepted." effect.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:08 am

It's because negating the drawback of the hellfire warlock is cheesy while Natural Spell druid is Core. It's the perception of the issue that's the problem.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:23 am

yeah, it's also why the class itself says that a character without a con score or immune to con damage cannot use the abilities. My favoured way of negating the problems is by making an item that channels a major-positive dominant trait from the Plane of Positive Energy. This would constantly heal you, each round, but at the risk of "exploding" due to too much energy, thereby keeping the facade of being "fair" because you're still at very real risk of death from using your Hellfire abilities, but making them much safer to use since the chances of you actually reaching the Explosion HP threshold are slim to none, due to constantly losing hp to con damage and regular damage of combat.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:26 am

Or you could just carry around a wand of lesser restoration.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:34 am

yes, or that.

I'm an aesthetics person, so the option that makes my character the fantasy demonic equivalent of Bane is more attractive to me, but that's just me.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:56 pm

In most cases, these benefits are gained on a level-bylevel
basis—your character gains the specified incremental
benefit each time she gains a level. Unless otherwise
noted, these benefits always stack with themselves. For
example, a human with paladin as a favored class may
choose to gain 1 point of energy resistance each time she
gains a level; choosing this benefit twice increases this
resistance bonus to 2 per level, 10 times raises it to 10 per
level, and so on.

Human paladins can get ER 400 at level 20.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:09 pm

Koumei wrote:Roy: was that last picture a hammer or a penis? Once that's confirmed, I'll know what to do.

It is a baka mallet. The implication being that something a person can do that isn't super lame and boring with the Pathfailure books is to set them on fire, and Baka Mallet anyone who complains.